Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Spouses
ChildrenWilliam Henry (1864-ca1928)
Marriage20 Feb 1865, St Matthew’s Church, Walsall, Staffs
ChildrenGeorge (ca1865-)
 Susannah (1868-ca1946)
 Eliza (ca1872-)
 Josiah (ca1874-ca1939)
 <not named> (ca1875-ca1875)
 Frederick (ca1876-)
 John Henry (ca1879-)
 Emily Maud (ca1881-)
 Samuel Francis (ca1884-)
Notes for Emma Eccleston
Emma’s ancestry is difficult if not impossible to work out.

This is the latest rethink, using all that I have now found and primarily serving up what Emma recorded or allowed to be recored about herself.

Emma appeared to this study when she was found to be the mother of William Henry Eccleston who was baptised in April 1865.  An image of this important parish register page is to be found on FindMyPast’s site and has been downloaded.

Emma had three significant events on public record that year, chronological order unknown:

1. In the first quarter of 1865, her son George Whitehouse was born and his birth registered.
2. On 20th Feb 1865 she married John Whitehouse in Walsall.
3. On 30 April 1965 her two sons were baptised in this order from the parish register: George Whitehouse then William Henry Eccleston.  For the first entry she was listed as the wife of John Whitehouse.  For the second baptism she was listed as Emma Eccleston, single woman.

It is uncertain when William Henry Eccleston was born.  Obviously it has to have been at least nine months before George.  So william’s birth, in my view, was either in early 1864 or in 1863, though it could have been earlier.  The years that William Henry and his mother gave in the censuses for his birth range from 1863 to 1867 with the latter being obvious rubbish.

William Henry’s birth was not registered and his baptism was 1 to 2 years after his birth.

During his childhood William lived with his mother and his (half-?) siblings and was entered in the censuses as William Henry Whitehouse.  He reverted  to his baptised surname at marriage in 1890.

But where did Emma come from?

The censuses show us that there were several Emma Ecclestons which makes it difficult to work out which, if any, was her in the censuses before her marriage, that is 1851 and 1861.

The information that Emma, the mother of William Henry and of George (and eight others) gave us in the censuses of 1871 and after is:

             Emma   Emma’s Birth
  Census     Age    Yr     Place      

   1871       24   1847   Cheslyn Hay
   1881       30   1851   Cheslyn Hay
   1891       38   1853   Essex London  
   1901       47   1854   Ruakin, Salop  
   1911             RIP                

Emma’s age was all over the place, not to mention also her birth places.  At marriage in 1865 she had said she was 20, so was born in 1845.  Perhaps she did not wish anyone to work out where she did come from.

The other piece of information she left us is the name of her father.  At marriage she had to give the name and occupation of her father.  She said he was William Eccleston and he was a Forgeman.

There are in fact two baptisms, on FindMyPast, in England of an Emma Eccleston whose father was William:

  Last name  First name(s)  Year  Location
  Eccleston  Emma           1843  Knockin, Shropshire
  Eccleston  Emily          1852  Spalding St Mary,
                                  St Nicolas,
                                  Lincolnshire

The second of these was for an Emily, sometimes seen as a long name for Emma but there is no evidence that our Emma was ever an Emily.

So let us proceed with this 1843 baptism, whose details are:

Church:       Knockin, Shropshire
Bapt date:    28 Feb 1843
Margin note:  Entd. into the church Nov 31 ….(?)
Name:         Emma dau of
Parents:      William, labourer, & Sarah
Surname:      Eccleston
Abode:        Knockin

From the margin note, presumably this Emma was born in Nov 1842.  If this is for Emma the mother of William Henry and of George, etc, she would have been around 42 at the birth of her last child, Francis or, later Samuel Francis, Whitehouse in 1884, perfectly feasible.

The next entry of Emma’s age was at marriage in 1865 when she said she was 20 and the daughter of William Ecclestone, Forgeman.  If her age at the above baptism was three months and if this was indeed her baptism, then at marriage she was 22.  It is possible she wished to give her husband the idea that he was older than her. as he seems to have been born around 1842.  (My paternal gt-grandmother radically reduced her age at both her marriages, I have presumed for the same reason.)

I remain doubtful about the above:

1. The ages for Emma are not consistent,
2. Emma gave a wide variety of different birth places,
3. There was a local Charles Eccleston who was a forgeman, might Emma have borrowed that job description for her actual father?
4. I cannot find a family of William and Sarah Eccleston in the 1841 census.
5. I cannot find a family of William, Sarah and Emma in the 1851 or 1861 censuses.
_________________________

All we know with reasonable certainty is:

1. Emma’s maiden name was Eccleston which she gave at:
   (a) her marriage to John Whitehouse in February 1865,
   (b) William Henry’s baptism,
   (c) the registration of all nine children with John Whitehouse.

2. She had ten children, all in Cheslyn Hay.

3. She was with her family in the 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses.

4. She died in 1907 in the Cannock registration district.

The rest of these Misc Notes gives transcripts of most of these.
===================================================================


This is the 1871 census for Whitehouse at The Green, Cheslyn Hay, Penkridge, Staffordshire:

First name(s)  Last name  Relationship  Marital status  Sex  Age  Birth year  Occupation  Birth place
John      Whitehouse  Head  -  M  30  1841  Miner    Staffordshire, Cheslyn Hay
Emma      Whitehouse  Wife  -  F  24  1847  -        Staffordshire, Cheslyn Hay
William   Whitehouse  Son   -  M   7  1864  Scholar  Staffordshire, Cheslyn Hay
George    Whitehouse  Son   -  M   6  1865  Scholar  Staffordshire, Cheslyn Hay
Susannah  Whitehouse  Daur  -  F   2  1869  -        Staffordshire, Cheslyn Hay
John      Smith       Lodg  -  M  50  1821  Miner    Staffordshire, Stafford

Ref:
Archive reference  RG10
Piece number       2925
Folio              68
Page               23
Combined:          1871 ref: RG10, piece 2925, folio 68, p. 23
________________________

And George had this birth index (among 209):

   Name:                   Mother's Maiden Surname:
   WHITEHOUSE, GEORGE      ECCLESTONE  
   GRO Reference: 1865  J Quarter in PENKRIDGE  Volume 06B  Page 440

And Susannah had this birth index:

   Name:                      Mother's Maiden Surname:
   WHITEHOUSE, SUSANNAH       ECCLESTONE  
   GRO Reference: 1869  M Quarter in PENKRIDGE  Volume 06B  Page 451

Interestingly George was baptised first at Cannock on 30th April 1865, with the surname of Waterhouse and parents of John and Emma and next in the baptism register was William Henry with the surname of Eccleston and parent as Emma (again) Eccleston ‘single woman’.  Bingo…  I had previously imagined this was two separate families keeping one another company from the village of Chesslyn Hay, four or five miles from Cannock, a steady walk.  Bit I have subsequently found that there was a train connection available from the early 1860s.

No baptism can be found for Susannah.

This has not fully resolved the question.  We still are not certain who are the parents of Emma Ecclestone; there is no parish register entry for their marriage.  The simple resolution is to get a copy of her marriage certificate which will state her father’s name on it (hopefully).  

In truth we have no idea of Emma’s age at marriage.  She could have been older.  Or younger.  If younger, she would have required parental permission which she might not have wanted to try out.

========================================

Now that we know Emma was married and her married name, we can chase her history to the end of her life:

In 1881 they were still at 4, Green, Cheslyn Hay, Cannock, Staffordshire with four more children:

First                      Ma-         Birth
name(s)   Last name   Rel  rr  Sex Age  yr  Occupation          Birth place
John      Whitehouse  Head  M  M  37  1844  Coal miner          Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Emma      Whitehouse  Wife  M  F  30  1851  Wife                Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
William   Whitehouse  Son   S  M  18  1863  Coal miner          Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
George    Whitehouse  Son   S  M  16  1865  Coal miner          Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Susannah  Whitehouse  Daur  S  F  12  1869  Scholar             Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Eliza     Whitehouse  Daur  S  F   8  1873  Scholar             Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Josiah    Whitehouse  Son   S  M   7  1874  Scholar             Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Fredrick  Whitehouse  Son   S  M   5  1876  -                   Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
John H    Whitehouse  Son   S  M   1  1880  -                   Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
John      Parton      Vist  M  M  40  1841  Stock taker (iron)  West Bromwich, Staffordshire
Sarah     Parton      Vist  M  F  41  1840  -                   Wales

Ref:
Archive reference  RG11
Piece number       2786
Folio              40
Page               9
Combines:          1881 ref: RG11, piece 2786, folio 40, Page 9
________________________

In 1891 they were still in Cheslyn Hay at New Inn, Station Road, Cheslyn Hay, Cannock, Staffordshire:

First name(s)  Last name  Relationship  Marital status  Sex  Age  Birth year  Occupation  Birth place
John       Whitehouse  Head  M  M  44  1847  Coal miner and licenced victualler
                                                                         Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Emma       Whitehouse  Wife  M  F  38  1853  -                           London
George     Whitehouse  Son   S  M  24  1867  Coal miner                  Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Eliza      Whitehouse  Daur  S  F  18  1873  -                           Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Josiah     Whitehouse  Son   S  M  15  1876  Coal miner                  Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Frederick  Whitehouse  Son   S  M  14  1877  Brick maker                 Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
John H     Whitehouse  Son   -  M  11  1880  Scholar                     Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Maud       Whitehouse  Daur  -  F   7  1884  Scholar                     Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Samuel F   Whitehouse  Son   -  M   6  1885  Scholar                     Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Jane       Green       Serv  S  F  22  1869  General servant domestic    Stafford, Staffordshire

Ref:
Archive reference  RG12
Piece number       2221
Folio              142
Page               12
Combined:          1891 ref: RG12, piece 2221, folio 142, p. 12

Note that Emma had a further two children in the 1880s and that Emma’s birth had moved from 1847 in 1871 to 1851 in 1881 and now at 1853 in 1891.  Not to mention that she now gives a birth place of London.

William Henry was in his own house in 1891 as he had married in 1890, using the surname of Eccleston.
________________________

In 1901 she and her family were still in Creslyn Hay: Station Street, Cheslyn Hay, Cannock, Staffordshire:

First name(s)  Last name  Relationship  Marital status  Sex  Age  Birth year  Occupation  Birth place
John         Whitehouse  Head  M  M  57  1844  Coal miner hewer         Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Emma         Whitehouse  Wife  M  F  47  1854  -                        Shropshire
Frederick    Whitehouse  Son   S  M  23  1878  Coal miner               Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
John Henry   Whitehouse  Son S  M  21  1880  Coal miner horse driver  Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Emily Maude  Whitehouse  Daur  S  F  18  1883  -                        Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Francis Sam  Whitehouse  Son S  M  17  1884  Coal miner               Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
George Wm    Thomas      G-sn  S  M   7  1894  -                        Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire
Mary Ann     Dawkins     Serv  S  F  14  1887  Servant (domestic)       Chadsmoor, Staffordshire

Ref:
Archive reference  RG13
Piece number       2665
Folio              7
Page               5
Combined:          1901 ref: RG13, piece 2665, folio 7, p. 6

Note that Emma is now born in 1854, another year taken off her age, and is now born in Ruaken, Shropshire, from the enumerator’s sheet.
_______________________

Emma had a total of ten children: William Henry with an an unknown father, possibly John, and, with John Whitehouse, five further sons and four daughters.

One daughter died very early.  All the other children seem to have survived to adulthood but I will have further details as my investigations continue.
______________________

All Emma’s and Wm’s census info, bearing in mind that Wm married in 1890 and was living is his own house in the  1891 census and after:

           Emma   Emma’s Birth         Wm    Wm’s Birth          Emma Age at
Census     Age    Yr     Place         Age  Year  Place          Wm birth

1871       24   1847   Cheslyn Hay      7  1864  Cheslyn Hay      14
1881       30   1851   Cheslyn Hay     18  1863  Cheslyn Hay      12
1891       38   1853   Essex London    27  1864  Cheslyn Hay      11
1901       47   1854   Ruakin, Salop   37  1864  Cheslyn Hay      10
1911             RIP                   44  1867  Cheslyn Hay       -
1928              -                    67  1861  (at his death)
_______________________

She probably died in 1907 and certainly could not be found in the 1911 census:

Name:                  Age at Death (in years):
WHITEHOUSE, EMMA       56  
GRO Reference: 1907  J Quarter in CANNOCK  Volume 06B  Page 296
_______________________
Notes for N.N. & Emma (Family)
We know nothing of the father of William Henry Eccleston.

His did not marry Emma.  William henry did not have his birth registered, so there was no opportunity to enter his name there.

The only record we have of William Henry’s birth is on the baptism register of St Luke’s Cannock for 30th April 1965, which turns out to be a Sunday.

Emma had taken both her children along to be baptised, the elder William Henry and the new-born George.  Emma lived at Chelyn Hay and this was three or four miles from St Luke’s in Cannock.  There were no buses and no trains in those days.  People could cadge lifts from a carrier.  My assumption is that she walked to St Luke’s.  Could she have carried both children?  I doubt it, probably someone carried William Henry, possibly this was her then husband John Whitehouse as it was on Sunday and most likely the mine did not work then.  I think John would have been at the christening.

The baptism service was a mass baptism with about ten babies baptised on that Sunday.  I have no idea how the mass baptism proceeded.  There was little chance of making arrangement beforehand over the phone; I imagine that people just turned up, they were baptised and the priest asked for their names while doing so and other details when entering the register, or rather when entering his notebook prior to fair copy into the register.

At this stage, let us imagine that George was presented first, as his entry is prior to William Henry’s.  Everything would have gone smoothly. He was fairly recently born and his parents were recently married too and it could even have been, the marriage at Walsall, a day or two before George was born.  So George’s parents were indeed John and Emma Whitehouse, as entered on the register.  Then William Henry was presented.  Might Emma have said that he too was the son of her and John Whitehouse.  Might the priest have noticed that William Henry was at least a year old and so was born well before John and Emma got married.  Might the priest then have said sternly: “No you, John and Emma, are not his religiously defined parents.  At the time of William Henry’s birth, you were not married, what was your name then, Emma?”  So she gave the name of Eccleston and this was what was written down in the register, albeit with her married name on the line above!

The above account is to show that there is a case for concluding that William Henry’s father was none other than the father of all his brothers and sisters, John Whitehouse.  For some strange reason, possibly to prove that the law was an ass, Emma then made sure that William Henry did not forget that he had been baptised William Henry Eccleston.
____________________

In a different way my paternal grandfather was baptised with the surname of Powys.  By the time his sister, the second of the children of his parents, he being the first, was born, his father, and mother, had changed their name to Powys-Lybbe and his sister was registered and baptised with that surname.

Through his childhood my grandfather was always called Powys-Lybbe.  But he knew he was really ‘Powys’.  So within three weeks after his 21st birthday he changed his name by deed-poll to Powys-Lybbe.  It was open to William Henry to adopt the Whitehouse name once he was 21 but he chose not to do this; did he think that he was not Whitehouse?  Or did he think that the law was an ass?  Or did he not know he had that option?  We shall never know.
____________________
Notes for John & Emma (Family)
Their marriage index:

First name(s)     Emma
Last name         Eccleston
Marriage quarter  1
Marriage year     1865
MarriageFinder    Emma Eccleston married one of these people
                  John Whitehouse, George Acres
District          Walsall
County            Staffordshire
Country           England
Volume            6B
Page number       702
Record set        England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
______________________

This does not provide the names of their fathers.  Nor can a copy of any parish register marriage be found on FindMyPast.  So I may have to shell out on a full marriage Certificate.  Though Ancestry will be tried first; they have nothing.  Ordered from GRO on 6 July 2021.  Delivered on 13th July 2021.
______________________

One point to notice is that all her and John Whitehouse’s children were registered with her maiden name given as Eccleston.  It is not clear yet what even was the first event to have this maiden name reported.  Was it the marriage on 20th February 1865 or was it the registration of George’s birth in Q1 of 1965?  I have ordered George’s birth certificate to find out; on 13th July 2021.

The next event at which her maiden name of Eccleston was given was in April 1865 when she got her first two children baptised and gave her full maiden name for the sole parent of William Henry whose birth had not been registered.  See the marriage notes for the relationship between herself and the unknown father of William Henry Eccleston.
__________________

Walsall where they married, is about seven miles from Cheslyn Hay where they lived and where all the children were born.  Why did they go there and how did they do it?

She married in Q1 of 1865; she gave birth to George in Q1 of 1865.  I will shortly get the precise date of their marriage and the precise date of George’s birth is looking necessary.

So whatever the date, she was either heavily pregnant or had just given birth.  Could she really have walked that distance?  There were no buses or trains in those days and probably she and John could not have afforded either of those.  They may have got a lift on a carter’s wagon.

This still does not explain the long journey.  It is looking extremely likely that Emma was a very young mother.  She could have given birth to William Henry as young as ten.  If she wished to get married at the age of eleven, she would have needed her father’s permission.  She might have been thrown out of her parents’ house the moment she announced her pregnancy.  Or she might have anticipated a veto on her marriage by her father. Anyhow she could well have needed to conceal her age and make out that she was 21; certainly she did something of the sort in the early censuses of her married life.

(My gt-grandfather said his father was dead when he got married at the age of 19; this saved him the trouble of getting the long-estranged chap’s permission for his first marriage.  And in fact he later died some nine years before his father.)
______________________

Transcript of the marriage certificate:

CERTIFIED COPY OF AN ENTRY OF MARRIAGE   GIVEN AT THE GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE

1865 Marriage solemnised at St Matthew’s Church in the Parish of Walsall in the County of Stafford
No:            346
When Married:  February 20th

                His                  Hers
Full name:      John Whitehouse      Emma Eccleston
Age:            23                   20
Condition:      Bachelor             Spinster
Profession:     Miner                -
Residence:      Lichfield St.        Lichfield St.
Father’s name:  William Whitehouse   William Eccleston
Father’s job:   Miner                Forgeman

Married in the Parish Church according to the Rites and
Ceremonies of the Established Church by Banns by me:   Wm. Burnet, Curate

This Marriage was solemnized between us: X John Whitehouse his mark, Emma Eccleston
In the Presence of us: X  Joseph Jones his mark,  X Elizabeth Morgan her mark.
______________________
Last Modified 13 Aug 2021Created 14 May 2022 by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re-created by Tim Powys-Lybbe on 14 May 20220