Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Death1417
GeneralOf Edmonton, Mx. MP, Sheriff of London.
FatherAdam Fraunceys (-1375)
Notes for Sir Adam Fraunceys
He m. (1), soon after 1372, Margaret Osterle widow of Thos Tudenham, (2) Margaret dau. of Sir John Holland but it is not known who was the mother of his children, Agnes, Elizabeth, Thomasina and two unnamed sons.

It has been suggested that Margaret Osterle was the dau. of John and Joan Osterle of Trumpington, Cambs, but no evidence is, as yet, known of.
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In Dec 2005, MAR added to the knowledge of his wives:

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Re: Sir Adam Francis +1417
Date: 22 Dec 2005 01:10:10 -0800


... @btinternet.com wrote:

> > Sir Adam Francis, died 1417; married firstly Margaret Osterley,
> > widow of Thomas Tuddenham of London; died before 1393; married
> > secondly Margaret Holand, died 1445.  Issue by first marriage:
>
> Evidence that Sir Adam Francis's three daughters and co-heirs
> were by his first marriage and not his second is afforded by his
> IPMs

It is Roskell in HoP who states that Sir Adam Francis's first wife
Margaret was daughter of John Osterle (sic) and widow of Thomas
Tudenham.  Although I do not have this article to hand and thus cannot cite (or check) his reference, it would appear that the former part of his statement is incorrect.

According to the 'Historical Gazeteer of London before the Great Fire', on the magnificent British History Online site, this Margaret, whose first husband Thomas Tudenham died in December 1371, was daughter and heir of Roger de Refham of London. [The work says that, having considered the chronology, the wife of Adam Francis was probably daughter rather than wife of Thomas Tudenham, but I see no reason why this should be the case, given that her second marriage took place after 1371 and the two of her four children for whom death dates are known survived until 1451 and 1462 respectively.]

Roger de Refham was in turn brother and heir of John de Refham; they
were sons of Alderman John de Refham, son of Sir Richer de Refham
(Mayor of London in 1310, died 1328) and his wife Joan, according to
documents cited in the Historical Gazeteer.

This gives three London Mayors as ancestors to the Freville family of
Little Shelford.

MAR
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And on the 5th Mar 2007, he added even more information:

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Margaret, first wife of Sir Adam Francis
Date: 5 Mar 2007 06:27:50 -0800

Much confusion surrounds the identity of Margaret, first wife of Sir
Adam Francis, MP (d 1417).

According to her husband's entry in HoP (Roskell et al), she was the
daughter of John Osterley and his wife Joan, and the widow of Thomas
Tuddenham of London.

According to the Historical Gazeteer of London Before The Great Fire
(Centre for Metropolitan History, 1987, p 462) she was heiress to
various Refham family properties in London; she is identified here as
a relation of Thomas Tuddenham (died December 1371), and it is is
posited that she was his daughter by his wife Margaret, daughter and
heir of Roger de Refham [incorrectly said to be son rather than
grandson of Sir Richer de Refham], and that she married Adam Francis
by 1375.  This identification is made on "chronological grounds" which we have seen in an earlier post on this subject is unwarranted - i.e. there is no chronological reason to assume that Adam Francis's first wife was the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham.

I have looked at VCH Cambs, Vol 8 p 256 which HoP cites as a
reference.  This concerns the manor of Arnold in Trumpington, Cambs,
and allows us to make sense of the apparently disparate
identifications above.

In 1393, Joan widow of John Osterley died, holding Arnold's manor.
Her heir was John, son of her daughter Margaret by Adam Francis.  He
died circa 1396 and was succeeded by his younger brother Nicholas, who also died shortly thereafter.  His heirs were his sisters Agnes and Elizabeth.  HoP appears to have overstretched itself in saying Adam Francis's wife Margaret was the daughter of John Osterley, as VCH Cambs only says she was daughter of John's widow Joan.  This shows that the Historical Gazeteer is wrong in saying Adam Francis married the daughter rather than the widow of Thomas Tuddenham, for we know Thomas's wife was Margaret (not Joan) - eg see his will, London Court of Hustings, probate 25.4.1372 - and thus Margaret Francis must have bee Thomas Tuddenham's widow.  We know that her father was Roger de Refham, and we can now conclude that her mother was Joan (died 1393) who was afterwards the wife and then widow of John Osterley.

Confirmation of this may be found in the Calendar of Patent Rolls
entry dated 17 June 1350, concerning land at Bradwell in Essex held by Roger de Refham and Joan his wife in dower, with reversion to John
Moryel and Joan his wife.  Joan may therefore have had three husbands, of whom de Refham and Osterley were the second and third
respectively.  As it appears she was heiress of Arnold's manor,
perhaps she was a member of the Arnold family, who are known to have
held that manor between 1279 and 1346.

The pedigree runs thus:

1. Roger de Refham married Joan (who afterwards married John Osterley) (d 1393).  Issue:

2. Margaret de Refham, married firstly Thomas Tuddenham, mercer of
London (died December 1371); married secondly Sir Adam Francis (d
1417).  Issue:

3a. John Francis, dspvp c1396
3b. Nicholas Francis, dspvp
3c. Agnes Francis, dsp 1461; married firstly Sir William Staundon;
married secondly Sir William Porter
3d. Elizabeth Francis, married Sir Thomas Charlton, and left issue.

MA-R
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I would agree from the above that:

1. Margaret’s surname was not Osterle,
2. She was very likely Margaret de Refham,
3. Elizabeth Fraunceys’ mother was this Margaret.

and I have altered my database accordingly.
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A day later in Mar 2007, TFPL: M A-R is of the opinion that Thomasine very likely had the same mother as the other four children.  As she was a nun, there is no inheritance line from here, so it does not matter much.  (I accept all of this.)

A further day in Mar 2007, TFPL: Will Johnson has quoted reports of Sir Adam’s IPM that Agnes was then 30 and more and Elizabeth was 24 and more.
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Notes for Adam & Margaret de (Family)
See Margaret’s Notes for the reasoning to give a c.1372 marriage date.
Last Modified 25 Mar 2014Created 14 May 2022 by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re-created by Tim Powys-Lybbe on 14 May 20220