Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Notes for Maren Halvorsdatter
Knut Olav Strætkvern wrote on 6 December 2016:
“A great-great grandmother on my mother’s side, Maren Halvorsdatter, gave birth to a son Halvor – the alleged father being a “travelling Englishman Mr. Powys” –according to the current church books in the parish of Aamot in Hedmark County. This was in 1829 and outside wedlock, thus the incident was reported to the authorities for punishment. Maren was the housewife at a major farm in Aamot - Sorknes, but at this time her marriage was breaking apart – she had moved out, according to the pastors brief note. Anyway, the circumstances where not the best for the newborn child. Despite several efforts, I have not been able to track down the official documents on the juridical case, apparently lost.
“The only primary information on hand is the name “Powys” which is quite un-Norwegian and highly unusual to come across far away in a remote part of Inland Norway at a time when even travelling between parishes required passports and long before tourism. He might have been on business – looking for timber. So far no independent sources have revealed anything on “a travelling Englishman”, but I’ve received tipoffs of Powys being a Welsh county name as well as a family name in Shropshire /Northampton. Halvor – my great grandfather carried the surname Powys/Povijs/Povijsen/Povitsen/Povis in several records until his death in 1865, so apparently the name remained with him although his father vanished into obscurity.
“Then I came across the powys.org website which obviously carries the namesake. Therefore my question to you whether there is a possibility to track down a travelling Powys to Norway within your records.
“I enclose image of the sources – in Norwegian of course (May 6th 1829):
No. 8 - http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070603350178.jpg
No. 16 - http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070603340600.jpg
“I will appreciate very much your attention on this matter and are looking forward to any suggestions you might have on tracking down “mr Powys”.”
I replied with what little information I had about the breeding Powys males of that period.
His second e-mail was:
“First your questions: Norwegian church records on life and death, confirmations, marriage, in/out flux were from approx. 1800-1810 written in duplicate. The main record book was kept by the clergyman himself (named Ministraliebok), while the second book was kept by the churchwarden (called Klokkerbok). This helped in safekeeping the records in case of fire, for example or for continued record keeping if there was a discontinuity in service. Frequently the Klokkerbok is much more neatly kept, because the vicar himself could be too hasty, or neglecting this tedious duty. The record numbering was not always the same either for various reasons. Whether the records were inserted simultaneously by the two men or the warden copied the vicar later on or vice versa, I’m not sure. The double book-keeping has proved indispensable in crosschecking information in a genealogical trail, and luckily for the case of Halvor born 1829, both records are intact. Still, the handwriting requires skilled interpretation.
The Ministraliebok clearly displays and H which apparently means Mr. or H(err) according to interpretations I’ve got but could also be a first initial. Actually, the corresponding record in the Klokkerbok, I presumed showed the same initial. But your suggestion the prefix is “John” is suddenly very appealing to me, and I will try to post it in the handwriting deciphering forum for a second opnion!
<snip of images which won’s store here>
“On your candidate list there is one John and two Henry, and one Horatio – clergymen or not. But John is a s you say a more likely candidate due to his profession and conduct(?).
“Viewed from the mother’s side: Why should she come up with a name so out of the blue? Aamot is a parish far from the coast, more than a week’s (unconvenient) travel in those days. Any English sailor seems therefore unlikely; my hypothesis is this Mr Powys was a man with a mission, a purpose, not the accidental tourist in late summer –early fall of 1828. Maren Halvorsdatter (1793-1877) was a woman of some social standing since she from 1818 was married to the owner (30 years her senior) of a major farm in the district, she herself coming from a well-standing family further up north in the valley Rendalen. At the time of Halvor’s birth her marriage was coming apart whether caused by her adultery or for other reasons. If she had claimed the father being one of the locals (which could actually have been the case) it would have discredited him and made her standing even worse. Some outsider or unknown to the local area had come and gone, any Swede, Dane, German or Polish could have been just as likely but then she would have given a name accordingly when the birth was recorded.
“The scarce juridical records that exists on the case says that she in the spring of 1831 was sentenced by the Department of Justice as follows: “…for 1st time adultery she is given the choice of prison for 5 days on water and bread, or submit to prosecution by the Law”. What became the outcome is not known. If the alleged father had been a local he, too would have appeared in the records with a sentence, but apparently the father was long gone and she was left with blame and shame. If the truth was another one – “the travelling Englishman” a product of her fantasy for whatever reason, she would have had ample time to tell her son. Maren lived as a widow with Halvor and his family at small farm for the rest of her life, Halvor working as a farm hand (tenant). Then he died only 36 years, leaving the family in poverty. In addition to three daughters, he had one son Martin (b. 1856) who vanishes from records after the 1875 census. Any male descendants after him would have been candidates for Y-DNA analysis. For myself I have filed DNA analysis at FTDNA for both Y-DNA (no relevant, of course) and autosomal DNA (Family Finder), so if you know of any Powys -descendant to test against , let me know.
“My conviction at present, one which I of course must challenge and test whenever new information appears, is that Mr [H / John] Powys came to Aamot or the Eastern valley region visiting with local men of standing, perhaps for trading timber or minerals or merchandise, or prospecting for industrial opportunities. Or simply for hunting. In this setting he and Maren met, whether there was a mutual attraction or just one night we will never know. She carefully remembered his name, an unusual one, without distorting it into something Norwegian-like. For any romantic novel writer this should be an attractive script”
I then sent him a copy of John Powys’ will which provided for two children he had fathering in Liverpool shortly before getting married. This establishes on that he had form.
___________________
In 2020 I had a Y-DNA test which established that I had a clearly identifiable “Terminal SNP” coded as R-S7239. FamilyTreeDNA told me at that time that this was a Norwegian SNP, so that I must have had Norwegian ancestry and elsewhere I found suggestions that the R-S7239 SNP first appeared around 150 BC.
The only other holders of the same SNP were two people from Norway. So there were the three of us, only with that SNP. However within two days FamilyTreeDNA had altered their categorisation of this SNP. In stead of three holders there was one, me, plus two holders of a descendant SNP called BY67151 and which was carried by the two Norwegians. So these two Norwegians definitely came from the same stock as us and they now appears to have come from England and this was some time after the formation of R-S7293 in 150 odd BCE.
Two and two rapidly bacame four when I had found that Norway still uses a partinomial naming system: sons take on ther father’s forename plus ’sen’ and daughters take on theri father’s forename plus ‘datter’. So surnames vanish after one generation. The four comes from an assumption that Helvor Powys’ son did father some children who have continued in the male line and are not Ellefsen which applies to one of the two holders of this SNP in a FTDNA Project Group for the family of “Descendants of Jens Pedersen Schielderup, second bishop to Bergen, Norway, born ca. 1509 in Skjellerup, Hobro, Jylland, Denmark”. I suspect that because of the Norwegian nameing practice, or perhaps a NPE, they might have missed that their paternal line went through a Powys of England, as above.
The simple genetic explanations of these three people who bear the R-S7293 SNP is that we are all descended from the same male line and that this male line goes through William Powys of Ludlow who lived from 1494 to 1577. The connection to the Norwegians is through some Powys descendant such as the above John and which line was through the youngest son of William Powys (d.1577) and which line is usually known as the Powyses of Berwick. All other male lines of that Powys family have died out, in the 19th century.
If the previous paragraph is accepted, it means that:
(a) the Powyses of Berwick are descended from William Powys in spite of the thin records in the early 1600s.
(b) All the known holders of R-S7293 are descended from William Powys so that this SNP can be named ‘Powys’.
I have yet to get a reply to my note to Knut as I think there is some forther research that can be done in Norway in the light of the above.
Finally it is worth getting Ian Powys’ sample to be put through FamilyTreeDNA’s Big-Y test to see if he too has this R-S7293 SNP. So far he is down as a match on FTDNA’s Y-37 STR tests but which do not give SNP information. I am proposing to action this.
_________________
Jan 2021, TFPL: In the middle of 202 Ian’s Big-Y test results were made known and he and I share the same Terminal SNP. This means that we have a cmoon male line ancestor. In fact that ancestor was already known as we are seventh cousins once removed. The common ancestor is Thomas Powys of Lilford, Northants, who lived from 1648 to 1719, who therefore has the same Terminal SNP as Ian and I. It is worth noting that this result proves there are no NPE, ’Non Paternal events’, in both of our lines from THomas of Lilford.
Forther Thomas’ male line ancestors would have born the same Terminal SNP. If there were no NPE between him and his gt-grandfather, William Powys of Ludlow (c.1494-1577), then William of Ludlow bore the same SNP. Finally he would have passed this SNP to all his sons, which would include your youngest son John who founded the Powys line eventually known as Powys of Berwick, Shropshire. And any male line from these Powses of Berwick would carry the same SNP.
Is this relevant to the Powys of England family that had descendants in Norway?
____________________
“A great-great grandmother on my mother’s side, Maren Halvorsdatter, gave birth to a son Halvor – the alleged father being a “travelling Englishman Mr. Powys” –according to the current church books in the parish of Aamot in Hedmark County. This was in 1829 and outside wedlock, thus the incident was reported to the authorities for punishment. Maren was the housewife at a major farm in Aamot - Sorknes, but at this time her marriage was breaking apart – she had moved out, according to the pastors brief note. Anyway, the circumstances where not the best for the newborn child. Despite several efforts, I have not been able to track down the official documents on the juridical case, apparently lost.
“The only primary information on hand is the name “Powys” which is quite un-Norwegian and highly unusual to come across far away in a remote part of Inland Norway at a time when even travelling between parishes required passports and long before tourism. He might have been on business – looking for timber. So far no independent sources have revealed anything on “a travelling Englishman”, but I’ve received tipoffs of Powys being a Welsh county name as well as a family name in Shropshire /Northampton. Halvor – my great grandfather carried the surname Powys/Povijs/Povijsen/Povitsen/Povis in several records until his death in 1865, so apparently the name remained with him although his father vanished into obscurity.
“Then I came across the powys.org website which obviously carries the namesake. Therefore my question to you whether there is a possibility to track down a travelling Powys to Norway within your records.
“I enclose image of the sources – in Norwegian of course (May 6th 1829):
No. 8 - http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070603350178.jpg
No. 16 - http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070603340600.jpg
“I will appreciate very much your attention on this matter and are looking forward to any suggestions you might have on tracking down “mr Powys”.”
I replied with what little information I had about the breeding Powys males of that period.
His second e-mail was:
“First your questions: Norwegian church records on life and death, confirmations, marriage, in/out flux were from approx. 1800-1810 written in duplicate. The main record book was kept by the clergyman himself (named Ministraliebok), while the second book was kept by the churchwarden (called Klokkerbok). This helped in safekeeping the records in case of fire, for example or for continued record keeping if there was a discontinuity in service. Frequently the Klokkerbok is much more neatly kept, because the vicar himself could be too hasty, or neglecting this tedious duty. The record numbering was not always the same either for various reasons. Whether the records were inserted simultaneously by the two men or the warden copied the vicar later on or vice versa, I’m not sure. The double book-keeping has proved indispensable in crosschecking information in a genealogical trail, and luckily for the case of Halvor born 1829, both records are intact. Still, the handwriting requires skilled interpretation.
The Ministraliebok clearly displays and H which apparently means Mr. or H(err) according to interpretations I’ve got but could also be a first initial. Actually, the corresponding record in the Klokkerbok, I presumed showed the same initial. But your suggestion the prefix is “John” is suddenly very appealing to me, and I will try to post it in the handwriting deciphering forum for a second opnion!
<snip of images which won’s store here>
“On your candidate list there is one John and two Henry, and one Horatio – clergymen or not. But John is a s you say a more likely candidate due to his profession and conduct(?).
“Viewed from the mother’s side: Why should she come up with a name so out of the blue? Aamot is a parish far from the coast, more than a week’s (unconvenient) travel in those days. Any English sailor seems therefore unlikely; my hypothesis is this Mr Powys was a man with a mission, a purpose, not the accidental tourist in late summer –early fall of 1828. Maren Halvorsdatter (1793-1877) was a woman of some social standing since she from 1818 was married to the owner (30 years her senior) of a major farm in the district, she herself coming from a well-standing family further up north in the valley Rendalen. At the time of Halvor’s birth her marriage was coming apart whether caused by her adultery or for other reasons. If she had claimed the father being one of the locals (which could actually have been the case) it would have discredited him and made her standing even worse. Some outsider or unknown to the local area had come and gone, any Swede, Dane, German or Polish could have been just as likely but then she would have given a name accordingly when the birth was recorded.
“The scarce juridical records that exists on the case says that she in the spring of 1831 was sentenced by the Department of Justice as follows: “…for 1st time adultery she is given the choice of prison for 5 days on water and bread, or submit to prosecution by the Law”. What became the outcome is not known. If the alleged father had been a local he, too would have appeared in the records with a sentence, but apparently the father was long gone and she was left with blame and shame. If the truth was another one – “the travelling Englishman” a product of her fantasy for whatever reason, she would have had ample time to tell her son. Maren lived as a widow with Halvor and his family at small farm for the rest of her life, Halvor working as a farm hand (tenant). Then he died only 36 years, leaving the family in poverty. In addition to three daughters, he had one son Martin (b. 1856) who vanishes from records after the 1875 census. Any male descendants after him would have been candidates for Y-DNA analysis. For myself I have filed DNA analysis at FTDNA for both Y-DNA (no relevant, of course) and autosomal DNA (Family Finder), so if you know of any Powys -descendant to test against , let me know.
“My conviction at present, one which I of course must challenge and test whenever new information appears, is that Mr [H / John] Powys came to Aamot or the Eastern valley region visiting with local men of standing, perhaps for trading timber or minerals or merchandise, or prospecting for industrial opportunities. Or simply for hunting. In this setting he and Maren met, whether there was a mutual attraction or just one night we will never know. She carefully remembered his name, an unusual one, without distorting it into something Norwegian-like. For any romantic novel writer this should be an attractive script”
I then sent him a copy of John Powys’ will which provided for two children he had fathering in Liverpool shortly before getting married. This establishes on that he had form.
___________________
In 2020 I had a Y-DNA test which established that I had a clearly identifiable “Terminal SNP” coded as R-S7239. FamilyTreeDNA told me at that time that this was a Norwegian SNP, so that I must have had Norwegian ancestry and elsewhere I found suggestions that the R-S7239 SNP first appeared around 150 BC.
The only other holders of the same SNP were two people from Norway. So there were the three of us, only with that SNP. However within two days FamilyTreeDNA had altered their categorisation of this SNP. In stead of three holders there was one, me, plus two holders of a descendant SNP called BY67151 and which was carried by the two Norwegians. So these two Norwegians definitely came from the same stock as us and they now appears to have come from England and this was some time after the formation of R-S7293 in 150 odd BCE.
Two and two rapidly bacame four when I had found that Norway still uses a partinomial naming system: sons take on ther father’s forename plus ’sen’ and daughters take on theri father’s forename plus ‘datter’. So surnames vanish after one generation. The four comes from an assumption that Helvor Powys’ son did father some children who have continued in the male line and are not Ellefsen which applies to one of the two holders of this SNP in a FTDNA Project Group for the family of “Descendants of Jens Pedersen Schielderup, second bishop to Bergen, Norway, born ca. 1509 in Skjellerup, Hobro, Jylland, Denmark”. I suspect that because of the Norwegian nameing practice, or perhaps a NPE, they might have missed that their paternal line went through a Powys of England, as above.
The simple genetic explanations of these three people who bear the R-S7293 SNP is that we are all descended from the same male line and that this male line goes through William Powys of Ludlow who lived from 1494 to 1577. The connection to the Norwegians is through some Powys descendant such as the above John and which line was through the youngest son of William Powys (d.1577) and which line is usually known as the Powyses of Berwick. All other male lines of that Powys family have died out, in the 19th century.
If the previous paragraph is accepted, it means that:
(a) the Powyses of Berwick are descended from William Powys in spite of the thin records in the early 1600s.
(b) All the known holders of R-S7293 are descended from William Powys so that this SNP can be named ‘Powys’.
I have yet to get a reply to my note to Knut as I think there is some forther research that can be done in Norway in the light of the above.
Finally it is worth getting Ian Powys’ sample to be put through FamilyTreeDNA’s Big-Y test to see if he too has this R-S7293 SNP. So far he is down as a match on FTDNA’s Y-37 STR tests but which do not give SNP information. I am proposing to action this.
_________________
Jan 2021, TFPL: In the middle of 202 Ian’s Big-Y test results were made known and he and I share the same Terminal SNP. This means that we have a cmoon male line ancestor. In fact that ancestor was already known as we are seventh cousins once removed. The common ancestor is Thomas Powys of Lilford, Northants, who lived from 1648 to 1719, who therefore has the same Terminal SNP as Ian and I. It is worth noting that this result proves there are no NPE, ’Non Paternal events’, in both of our lines from THomas of Lilford.
Forther Thomas’ male line ancestors would have born the same Terminal SNP. If there were no NPE between him and his gt-grandfather, William Powys of Ludlow (c.1494-1577), then William of Ludlow bore the same SNP. Finally he would have passed this SNP to all his sons, which would include your youngest son John who founded the Powys line eventually known as Powys of Berwick, Shropshire. And any male line from these Powses of Berwick would carry the same SNP.
Is this relevant to the Powys of England family that had descendants in Norway?
____________________
Notes for John & Maren (Family)
No marriage record found. The inly information is that a bastardy case was tried in Norway after the birth of her son and that she asserted that the father was Mr Powys from England.
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