Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
NameMargaret Buckland 
[100, Michael A-Reading “The early Wroths”, 3 Dec 2005]
[100, Michael A-Reading “The early Wroths”, 3 Dec 2005]GeneralHeir, of Bucklands of Downton, Wilts and Wallops and Brookley of Hants
Notes for Margaret Buckland
She may have been a daughter of Nicholas Buckland. Mardi and Michael Andrews-Reading had the following super exchange between Jan 2003 and May 2006:
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Margaret Buckland married John Wroth
Date: 17 May 2006 11:44:55 -0700
On 20 January 2003, Mardi posted the following:
"Roskell in HOP IV:908 states that the wife of John Wrothe, MP, who d.
1396/7 is Margaret, dau. of Sir Thomas Buckland. In Thomas' IPM
(XV:38#96), it clearly states that he died without heir of his body.
John Wrothe and Margaret, his wife, are his next heirs.
"VCH Hampshire IV:628 under Brookley:
"....Richard de Tudeworth.... conveyed [the manor] to John son of
Ralph de Bokland and Margaret his wife, with remainder to their three
sons, John, Thomas and Nicholas [CPR 1334-8, p. 179]. In 1347 John
obtained a grant of a weekly market on Tuesday in his manor of
Brookley and a yearly fair to last four days [Pat. 21 Edw III, pt. iv,
m. 21]. He was succeeded in 1362 [CIPM file 169, pt. i no. 34] by his
brother Thomas, who died without issue in 1377 seised of Brookley,
which than passed to his daughter Margaret, who had married John Worth
[CIPM 57 Edw III (2nd nos.), no. 17; CCR 2 Ric II, m. 12].
"VCH Wiltshire XI:31-2 under Redlynch in Downton (which confuses the
issue):
"In 1332, the year of his death, Ralph [de Buckland] settled 2
carucates at Redlynch on his son Sir John for life with remainder to
Sir John's sons John, Thomas, and Nicholas [Feet of F. 1327-77 (W.R.S.
xxix), p 36, for John's (?eldest) son Ralph see ibid pp. 15-6]. The
manor passed to the eldest of them, Sir John (d. 1362) [CIPM xi p
230], and to his brother Sir Thomas (d. 1379) [Ibid, xv, p 38]. It
was held after Sir Thomas's death by his widow Maud [Ibid; C.P.
25(1)/289/52 no 4; CCR 1377-81, 194] with remainder to their daughter
Margaret and her husband John Wroth [CIPM xv, p 38].
"John Buckland's IPM [XI:230-1] in 1364 states that his brother
Nicholas was deceased at that time.
Clearly Margaret de Buckland was dau. of John, the brother of Thomas"
While I agree it seems that Roskell et al are incorrect in their
statement (HoP 1386-1421 Vol IV sub Wroth) that Margaret the wife of
John Wroth was the daughter of Thomas Buckland, it is unclear to me
whose daughter she was.
Firstly, HoP says "John Wroth... added to [his inherited estates] by
marrying the daughter and heir of Sir Thomas Buckland. In June 1377
Buckland settled his Hampshire manor of Brookley upon them in
reversion, making them a further promise of the manors of Over and
Nether Wallop in the same county, and that of Redlynch in Downton,
Wiltshire, all of which duly came into their hands on his death two
years later. Moreover, in March 1380 Wroth's wife was also found to be
the next heir to the manor and advowson of West Grimstead in
Wiltshire."
The references given for these statements are CPR 1374-1377, p 482;
This reference from the Calendar of Patent Rolls is as follows:
16 June 1377: Licence, for 100s paid to the King by Thomas de Buklond,
knight, for him to enfeoff Mast John Culden, John Edward, clerk, John
Colyngburn and John Dekne, of the manor of Brokle, Co Southampton, held
in chief, and for them to re-enfeoff him thereof in tail, with
remainder in tail to John Wroth and Margaret his wife, and remainder
over to the right heirs of Thomas.
CCR 1377-1381, p 185; PCC 15 Marche; Guildhall Lib. London 9171/1 f 27d
[the will of John's father]; CP xii (1), 746; VCH Hants, iv 526 [the
volume, but not the page, cited by Mardi above]; Hoare, 'Modern Wilts',
37-38; Wilts Feet of Fine (Wilts Rec Soc xli) 2; CIMisc iv No 111;
CP25(1)151/77/58; CFR x 176-7.
The two VCH extracts that Mardi reproduced actually produce the
following stemma:
1. Ralph Buckland, died 1332; had issue:
2. Sir John Buckland; married Margaret; had issue:
3a. Sir John Buckland, died 1362
3b. Sir Thomas Buckland, died 1379
3c. Nicholas Buckland, dead by 1364.
Two PROCAT documents shed some further light.
SC8/34/1699 dated 1324: John Boklonde, son of Ralph de Boklonde:
petition to the King re Broughton and Frenchmoor, Hampshire: Edward I
leased to Boklonde the farms of these manors, to be held at will from
the King for £46 p.a.
C143/234/5 dated 9 Edward III [1335-6] - the original grant of
Brookley: Richard Tudeworthe of Salisbury to grant the manor of
Brookley to John, son of Ralp de Boklond, and Margaret his wife for
life, with remainder to John, Thomas and Nicholas, sons of the said
John, for their lives, remainder to the heirs male of the body of the
said John, remainder to his right heirs.
This puts the tenure of Brookley into focus: it was held by the elder
John, then his three sons (John, Thomas, Nicholas) for life, then the
elder John's heirs male, and then his heirs general.
On the elder John's death, it passed to his first son, John (d 1362);
on his death, regardless of his issue, it passed to Thomas (d 1379); it
would then have gone to Nicholas, but we know he had died at least
fifteen years earlier. The next heirs under the remainder would have
been the elder John's heirs male, but clearly there was none - which
means that by 1379 neither the younger John, nor Thomas nor Nicholas
had living sons or remoter male issue. We see the inheritance of the
heir general in Thomas' IPM:
Cal IPMs 1-7 Richard II, #38: Thomas de Bokeland, knight: Inquest at
Winchester, Monday before St Peter in Cathedra, 2 Richard II; writs
issued 28 January 2 Richard II; manor of Brokle given to trustees
during his life, with remainder to the heirs of his body, and to John
Wroth and Margaret his wife and the heirs of their bodies; held the
manors of Up (sic) and Nether Wallop to himself and his wife Maud, who
is still living; he died without heir of his body, 19 January last;
John Wroth and Margaret his wife aged 40 and more are his next heirs.
Also held in Wiltshire the manors of Wodefolde and Radelynche.
This IPM states clearly that Sir Thomas died without issue whatsoever.
Moreover, it appears that he enfeoffed the manor of Brookley, in which
he only had a life interest under the grant of 9 Edward III, with
remainder to the heirs of his body and then to John & Margaret Wroth.
Unless the terms of the original grant were not being followed, the
only way Thomas's own heirs could have preceded John & Margaret Wroth
in the remainder is if Margaret was not a daughter of Thomas's elder
brother John (for any such daughter or other issue would have been the
heir general of the elder John Buckland) but a daughter of Nicholas, or
possibly otherwise the elder John Buckland's "right heir".
I will chase up Roskell's other references, in case they assist.
MA-R
PCC 15 Marche is the will of John & Margaret's son and heir, Sir John
Wroth; the modern reference is PROB 11/2A; will of Sir John Wroth of
Edyngdon, Wilts, proved PCC August 1408.
_______________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Margaret Buckland married John Wroth
Date: 17 May 2006 11:44:55 -0700
On 20 January 2003, Mardi posted the following:
"Roskell in HOP IV:908 states that the wife of John Wrothe, MP, who d.
1396/7 is Margaret, dau. of Sir Thomas Buckland. In Thomas' IPM
(XV:38#96), it clearly states that he died without heir of his body.
John Wrothe and Margaret, his wife, are his next heirs.
"VCH Hampshire IV:628 under Brookley:
"....Richard de Tudeworth.... conveyed [the manor] to John son of
Ralph de Bokland and Margaret his wife, with remainder to their three
sons, John, Thomas and Nicholas [CPR 1334-8, p. 179]. In 1347 John
obtained a grant of a weekly market on Tuesday in his manor of
Brookley and a yearly fair to last four days [Pat. 21 Edw III, pt. iv,
m. 21]. He was succeeded in 1362 [CIPM file 169, pt. i no. 34] by his
brother Thomas, who died without issue in 1377 seised of Brookley,
which than passed to his daughter Margaret, who had married John Worth
[CIPM 57 Edw III (2nd nos.), no. 17; CCR 2 Ric II, m. 12].
"VCH Wiltshire XI:31-2 under Redlynch in Downton (which confuses the
issue):
"In 1332, the year of his death, Ralph [de Buckland] settled 2
carucates at Redlynch on his son Sir John for life with remainder to
Sir John's sons John, Thomas, and Nicholas [Feet of F. 1327-77 (W.R.S.
xxix), p 36, for John's (?eldest) son Ralph see ibid pp. 15-6]. The
manor passed to the eldest of them, Sir John (d. 1362) [CIPM xi p
230], and to his brother Sir Thomas (d. 1379) [Ibid, xv, p 38]. It
was held after Sir Thomas's death by his widow Maud [Ibid; C.P.
25(1)/289/52 no 4; CCR 1377-81, 194] with remainder to their daughter
Margaret and her husband John Wroth [CIPM xv, p 38].
"John Buckland's IPM [XI:230-1] in 1364 states that his brother
Nicholas was deceased at that time.
Clearly Margaret de Buckland was dau. of John, the brother of Thomas"
While I agree it seems that Roskell et al are incorrect in their
statement (HoP 1386-1421 Vol IV sub Wroth) that Margaret the wife of
John Wroth was the daughter of Thomas Buckland, it is unclear to me
whose daughter she was.
Firstly, HoP says "John Wroth... added to [his inherited estates] by
marrying the daughter and heir of Sir Thomas Buckland. In June 1377
Buckland settled his Hampshire manor of Brookley upon them in
reversion, making them a further promise of the manors of Over and
Nether Wallop in the same county, and that of Redlynch in Downton,
Wiltshire, all of which duly came into their hands on his death two
years later. Moreover, in March 1380 Wroth's wife was also found to be
the next heir to the manor and advowson of West Grimstead in
Wiltshire."
The references given for these statements are CPR 1374-1377, p 482;
This reference from the Calendar of Patent Rolls is as follows:
16 June 1377: Licence, for 100s paid to the King by Thomas de Buklond,
knight, for him to enfeoff Mast John Culden, John Edward, clerk, John
Colyngburn and John Dekne, of the manor of Brokle, Co Southampton, held
in chief, and for them to re-enfeoff him thereof in tail, with
remainder in tail to John Wroth and Margaret his wife, and remainder
over to the right heirs of Thomas.
CCR 1377-1381, p 185; PCC 15 Marche; Guildhall Lib. London 9171/1 f 27d
[the will of John's father]; CP xii (1), 746; VCH Hants, iv 526 [the
volume, but not the page, cited by Mardi above]; Hoare, 'Modern Wilts',
37-38; Wilts Feet of Fine (Wilts Rec Soc xli) 2; CIMisc iv No 111;
CP25(1)151/77/58; CFR x 176-7.
The two VCH extracts that Mardi reproduced actually produce the
following stemma:
1. Ralph Buckland, died 1332; had issue:
2. Sir John Buckland; married Margaret; had issue:
3a. Sir John Buckland, died 1362
3b. Sir Thomas Buckland, died 1379
3c. Nicholas Buckland, dead by 1364.
Two PROCAT documents shed some further light.
SC8/34/1699 dated 1324: John Boklonde, son of Ralph de Boklonde:
petition to the King re Broughton and Frenchmoor, Hampshire: Edward I
leased to Boklonde the farms of these manors, to be held at will from
the King for £46 p.a.
C143/234/5 dated 9 Edward III [1335-6] - the original grant of
Brookley: Richard Tudeworthe of Salisbury to grant the manor of
Brookley to John, son of Ralp de Boklond, and Margaret his wife for
life, with remainder to John, Thomas and Nicholas, sons of the said
John, for their lives, remainder to the heirs male of the body of the
said John, remainder to his right heirs.
This puts the tenure of Brookley into focus: it was held by the elder
John, then his three sons (John, Thomas, Nicholas) for life, then the
elder John's heirs male, and then his heirs general.
On the elder John's death, it passed to his first son, John (d 1362);
on his death, regardless of his issue, it passed to Thomas (d 1379); it
would then have gone to Nicholas, but we know he had died at least
fifteen years earlier. The next heirs under the remainder would have
been the elder John's heirs male, but clearly there was none - which
means that by 1379 neither the younger John, nor Thomas nor Nicholas
had living sons or remoter male issue. We see the inheritance of the
heir general in Thomas' IPM:
Cal IPMs 1-7 Richard II, #38: Thomas de Bokeland, knight: Inquest at
Winchester, Monday before St Peter in Cathedra, 2 Richard II; writs
issued 28 January 2 Richard II; manor of Brokle given to trustees
during his life, with remainder to the heirs of his body, and to John
Wroth and Margaret his wife and the heirs of their bodies; held the
manors of Up (sic) and Nether Wallop to himself and his wife Maud, who
is still living; he died without heir of his body, 19 January last;
John Wroth and Margaret his wife aged 40 and more are his next heirs.
Also held in Wiltshire the manors of Wodefolde and Radelynche.
This IPM states clearly that Sir Thomas died without issue whatsoever.
Moreover, it appears that he enfeoffed the manor of Brookley, in which
he only had a life interest under the grant of 9 Edward III, with
remainder to the heirs of his body and then to John & Margaret Wroth.
Unless the terms of the original grant were not being followed, the
only way Thomas's own heirs could have preceded John & Margaret Wroth
in the remainder is if Margaret was not a daughter of Thomas's elder
brother John (for any such daughter or other issue would have been the
heir general of the elder John Buckland) but a daughter of Nicholas, or
possibly otherwise the elder John Buckland's "right heir".
I will chase up Roskell's other references, in case they assist.
MA-R
PCC 15 Marche is the will of John & Margaret's son and heir, Sir John
Wroth; the modern reference is PROB 11/2A; will of Sir John Wroth of
Edyngdon, Wilts, proved PCC August 1408.
_______________________________________________________