Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
NameAgnes de Graham 
[100, John Ravilous, “Agnes Graham”, 5 Nov 2005 & 15 Nov 2006]
[100, John Ravilous, “Agnes Graham”, 5 Nov 2005 & 15 Nov 2006]GeneralShe was not widow of John Munfode, that was her aunt, another Agnes.
FatherSir John Graham (ca1278-1337)
MotherIsabella
Notes for Agnes de Graham
She was almost certainly a Graham, possibly the dau of Sir John Graham, who d. 1337. John Ravilous wrote on soc.gen.med on 9th Nov 2005:
The account in SP for the Douglas family of Dalkeith (later Earls
of Morton) provides little information with regard to spouses of
family members prior to the marriage of Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith
(d. 1420) to Agnes Dunbar. This is also the case with Sir James'
father Sir John de Douglas, whose wife Agnes is described only as
(evidently) the widow of John Monfode [1].
Fortunately, the dispensation for the marriage of Sir John and
his wife Agnes was preserved, the text for which is as follows:
" 1344.
4 Id. Oct. To the bishop of St. Andrews. Faculty to
Avignon. grant dispensation to John de Duglas, knight,
(f. 140d.) and Agnes de Grame to intermarry, they having
lived together and had offspring, notwithstanding
the assertion made that Agnes was aunt of a woman
with whom John had cohabited, Agnes being
ignorant of the said impediment. A penance is to
be enjoined on John, and two chaplaincies of 10
marks each are to be founded within two years.
Their past and future offspring is to be
declared legitimate.
[Cal. Pet. i.79; Theiner, 282.] " [2]
The apparent relationship of Sir John's brother Sir William de
Douglas, "the Knight of Liddesdale" with Sir John de Graham, lord of
Abercorn and Dalkeith, is documented to only a slight degree in SP,
primarily as to grants of land including ' that of the whole barony
of Dalkeith resigned by John Graham, Lord of Abercorn, on 6 January
1341-42...' [3]. There appears to be no problem as to which Graham
family is involved, or which generation:
1. The dealings between Sir William de Douglas and Sir John de
Graham of Dalkeith and Abercorn are well-documented. It is
alleged (although I have not yet found proof) that Sir
William's wife was a sister of Sir John de Graham - this
would certainly not be surprising.
2. Agnes de Graham could not have been a (legitimate) daughter
of Sir John de Graham and his wife Mary of Menteith, else
she would have been a coheiress to the Earldom and much
more (and different) information would have been known
about her.
3. The introduction of the name 'Nicholas' into the Douglas
family, among the issue of Agnes de Graham, further points
to a Graham of Abercorn (not Montrose) connection.
The pedigree of the family now appears to be expanded, as
follows:
Malise , Earl = 1) Marjorie de
of Strathearn I Muschamp
d. bef 23 Nov 1271 I
I
I
Sir Nicholas = Mary of Strathearn
de Graham I <coheiress of her mother>
d. 1306 I
I
I
Sir John de Graham = Isabella
d. 25 Apr 1337 I
______________I_____
I I
Sir John de = Agnes de Sir John de = Mary
Douglas I Graham Graham I C of
d bef 25 I V Menteith
Jan 1349/50 I
I
__________I_________________________________________
I I I I I III
Sir James William John Sir Henry Nicholas <siblings>
of Dalkeith of Lugton
= 1) Agnes of I
Dunbar V
I
__I______________________________________________
I I I I I
Agnes James William Janet Jacoba
= Sir John of Dalkeith = Sir John
Livingston d. 1441 Hamilton
I I I
V V V
This will have impact on the ancestry of a wide-ranging group,
including many list members, HRH Prince William, and a host too
numerous to mention.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] SP VI:342, sub _Douglas, Earl of Morton_.
[2] Bliss,ed. Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters,
Vol. III (A.D. 1342 - 1362) [London: PRO, 1897, reprinted
1971], p. 165.
[3] SP VI:340, cites Reg. Honor. de Morton, ii. 44.
_______________________________________________________
However neither CP nor SP have satisfactorily identified Agnes’ supposed brother, let alone that she was his brother.
_______________________________________________________
In November 2006 this had developed slightly:
From: "John P. Ravilious" <...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Agnes de Graham, wife of John de Monfode
Date: 16 Nov 2006 20:24:30 -0800
Thursday, 16 November 2006
Hello All,
In prior posts concerning Sir John de Douglas and his wife
Agnes de Graham (parents of the noted Sir James Douglas of
Dalkeith), it was noted that most accounts of the family including
that in Scots Peerage hold that Sir John's wife was Agnes, widow of
John de Monfode.
Two charters in the Registrum Honoris de Morton provide proof
of the placement of Agnes, wife of John de Monfode, as a daughter of
Sir Nicholas de Graham and Mary of Strathearn. The first,
identified as 'Carta de Hawthornsike', is a grant of the lands of
'Hawthornesyk' in the barony of Abercorn to Agnes de Monfode by
John de Graham, lord of Abercorn, dated at Lochleven, 5 Aug
1340 [1]. As John de Graham of Abercorn and Dalkeith, son of Sir
Nicholas, had died on 25 April 1337 [2], the John de Graham of the
1340 charter is clearly his son and heir.
The past difficulty (at least in part), and the correct
identification is based primarily on the language of this charter.
The editor rendered the text as a grant by John de Graham to ' my
dear friend, lady Agnes de Munfode ' [" dil'ce amice mee d'ne
Agneti de munfode "]. The word "amice" was an apparent error in
the transcription of the charter, which I confirmed today with
Andrew B. W. MacEwen. The word actually is "amite": the correct
translation of the text would then read as a grant to
'my dear aunt, lady Agnes de Munfode'.
That Agnes was a sister of the elder Sir John de Graham (and
daughter of Sir Nicholas), and not his sister-in-law, is indicated
by the word "amite", indicating that she was a paternal aunt
[nominative form "amita"]. A subsequent charter confirms this: a
subsequent grant of the lands of 'Hawthornsike' by William Mure of
Abercorn, dated 5 April 1361 mentions 'lady Agnes de Montfode,
relict of the deceased John de Montfode ' ["d'ne Agnetis de
montfode relicte quond' Joh'is de montfode"] [3]. Her name was de
Monfode, but (obviously) by marriage.
That Agnes, wife of Sir John de Douglas, was a niece of Agnes
(de Graham) de Monfode and not identical to her, is further
supported on chronological grounds. Sir John de Graham (son of Sir
Nicholas and his wife Mary of Strathearn) was born before 19 May
1278: an inquisition of 19 May 1306, concerning the Muschamp
inheritance, found that he was 28 years of age [possibly phrased as
'28 years and more'] [4]. Agnes de Graham had a dispensation for
her marriage to Sir John de Douglas in October 1344 [5], by which
date she had issue and evidently continued producing offspring
after that date (they had a total of 9 sons and daughters that
are known). Assuming a minimal range of 15 years to produce 9
offspring, from say 1335/1340 to 1350/1355, Agnes would reasonably
be assumed to have been born between say 1290 and 1320, but
probably no earlier than between say 1295 to 1300. Mary of
Strathearn was born sometime before 20 March 1248/9, as an IPM
dated 20 March 1254/5 found that she was aged 6 [presumably,
'6 and more'] [6]. The latest point at which we might assume a
child to have been born to Mary of Strathearn by Nicholas de
Graham would have been between say 1288 and 1294. It would be
an extreme stretch to place Agnes, wife of Sir John de Douglas,
as a daughter of Mary of Strathearn given these constraints.
The following is a chart previously posted, but modified to
reflect Agnes (de Graham) de Monfode and her position as one of
the Grahams of Dalkeith and Abercorn.
Sir Nicholas = Mary of Strathearn
de Graham I <coheiress of her mother>
d. 1306 I
__________I_________________________
I I
Sir John de Graham = Isabella Agnes = John de
d. 25 Apr 1337 I Monfode
_____I______________
I I
Sir John de = Agnes de John de Graham
Douglas I Graham <grantor of charter to 'aunt Agnes'
d bef 25 I
Jan 1349/50 I
I
__________I_________________________________________
I I I I I III
Sir James William John Sir Henry Nicholas <siblings>
of Dalkeith of Lugton
= 1) Agnes of I
Dunbar V
I
__I______________________________________________
I I I I I
Agnes James William Janet Jacoba
= Sir John of Dalkeith = Sir John
Livingston d. 1441 Hamilton
I I I
V V V
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Registrum Honoris de Morton II:40-41.
[2] Sanders, English Baronies, p. 101; SP VI:195.
[3] Registrum Honoris de Morton II:60.
[4] SP VI:195, cites Cal. Doc. Scot., iii. 392.
[5] Bliss, Calendar of Papal Letters III:165:
" 1344.
4 Id. Oct. To the bishop of St. Andrews. Faculty to
Avignon. grant dispensation to John de Duglas, knight,
(f. 140d.) and Agnes de Grame to intermarry, they having
lived together and had offspring, notwithstanding
the assertion made that Agnes was aunt of a woman
with whom John had cohabited, Agnes being
ignorant of the said impediment. A penance is to
be enjoined on John, and two chaplaincies of 10
marks each are to be founded within two years.
Their past and future offspring is to be
declared legitimate.
[Cal. Pet. i.79; Theiner, 282.] "
[6] SP VIII:247.
* John P. Ravilious
______________________________________________________
The account in SP for the Douglas family of Dalkeith (later Earls
of Morton) provides little information with regard to spouses of
family members prior to the marriage of Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith
(d. 1420) to Agnes Dunbar. This is also the case with Sir James'
father Sir John de Douglas, whose wife Agnes is described only as
(evidently) the widow of John Monfode [1].
Fortunately, the dispensation for the marriage of Sir John and
his wife Agnes was preserved, the text for which is as follows:
" 1344.
4 Id. Oct. To the bishop of St. Andrews. Faculty to
Avignon. grant dispensation to John de Duglas, knight,
(f. 140d.) and Agnes de Grame to intermarry, they having
lived together and had offspring, notwithstanding
the assertion made that Agnes was aunt of a woman
with whom John had cohabited, Agnes being
ignorant of the said impediment. A penance is to
be enjoined on John, and two chaplaincies of 10
marks each are to be founded within two years.
Their past and future offspring is to be
declared legitimate.
[Cal. Pet. i.79; Theiner, 282.] " [2]
The apparent relationship of Sir John's brother Sir William de
Douglas, "the Knight of Liddesdale" with Sir John de Graham, lord of
Abercorn and Dalkeith, is documented to only a slight degree in SP,
primarily as to grants of land including ' that of the whole barony
of Dalkeith resigned by John Graham, Lord of Abercorn, on 6 January
1341-42...' [3]. There appears to be no problem as to which Graham
family is involved, or which generation:
1. The dealings between Sir William de Douglas and Sir John de
Graham of Dalkeith and Abercorn are well-documented. It is
alleged (although I have not yet found proof) that Sir
William's wife was a sister of Sir John de Graham - this
would certainly not be surprising.
2. Agnes de Graham could not have been a (legitimate) daughter
of Sir John de Graham and his wife Mary of Menteith, else
she would have been a coheiress to the Earldom and much
more (and different) information would have been known
about her.
3. The introduction of the name 'Nicholas' into the Douglas
family, among the issue of Agnes de Graham, further points
to a Graham of Abercorn (not Montrose) connection.
The pedigree of the family now appears to be expanded, as
follows:
Malise , Earl = 1) Marjorie de
of Strathearn I Muschamp
d. bef 23 Nov 1271 I
I
I
Sir Nicholas = Mary of Strathearn
de Graham I <coheiress of her mother>
d. 1306 I
I
I
Sir John de Graham = Isabella
d. 25 Apr 1337 I
______________I_____
I I
Sir John de = Agnes de Sir John de = Mary
Douglas I Graham Graham I C of
d bef 25 I V Menteith
Jan 1349/50 I
I
__________I_________________________________________
I I I I I III
Sir James William John Sir Henry Nicholas <siblings>
of Dalkeith of Lugton
= 1) Agnes of I
Dunbar V
I
__I______________________________________________
I I I I I
Agnes James William Janet Jacoba
= Sir John of Dalkeith = Sir John
Livingston d. 1441 Hamilton
I I I
V V V
This will have impact on the ancestry of a wide-ranging group,
including many list members, HRH Prince William, and a host too
numerous to mention.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] SP VI:342, sub _Douglas, Earl of Morton_.
[2] Bliss,ed. Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters,
Vol. III (A.D. 1342 - 1362) [London: PRO, 1897, reprinted
1971], p. 165.
[3] SP VI:340, cites Reg. Honor. de Morton, ii. 44.
_______________________________________________________
However neither CP nor SP have satisfactorily identified Agnes’ supposed brother, let alone that she was his brother.
_______________________________________________________
In November 2006 this had developed slightly:
From: "John P. Ravilious" <...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Agnes de Graham, wife of John de Monfode
Date: 16 Nov 2006 20:24:30 -0800
Thursday, 16 November 2006
Hello All,
In prior posts concerning Sir John de Douglas and his wife
Agnes de Graham (parents of the noted Sir James Douglas of
Dalkeith), it was noted that most accounts of the family including
that in Scots Peerage hold that Sir John's wife was Agnes, widow of
John de Monfode.
Two charters in the Registrum Honoris de Morton provide proof
of the placement of Agnes, wife of John de Monfode, as a daughter of
Sir Nicholas de Graham and Mary of Strathearn. The first,
identified as 'Carta de Hawthornsike', is a grant of the lands of
'Hawthornesyk' in the barony of Abercorn to Agnes de Monfode by
John de Graham, lord of Abercorn, dated at Lochleven, 5 Aug
1340 [1]. As John de Graham of Abercorn and Dalkeith, son of Sir
Nicholas, had died on 25 April 1337 [2], the John de Graham of the
1340 charter is clearly his son and heir.
The past difficulty (at least in part), and the correct
identification is based primarily on the language of this charter.
The editor rendered the text as a grant by John de Graham to ' my
dear friend, lady Agnes de Munfode ' [" dil'ce amice mee d'ne
Agneti de munfode "]. The word "amice" was an apparent error in
the transcription of the charter, which I confirmed today with
Andrew B. W. MacEwen. The word actually is "amite": the correct
translation of the text would then read as a grant to
'my dear aunt, lady Agnes de Munfode'.
That Agnes was a sister of the elder Sir John de Graham (and
daughter of Sir Nicholas), and not his sister-in-law, is indicated
by the word "amite", indicating that she was a paternal aunt
[nominative form "amita"]. A subsequent charter confirms this: a
subsequent grant of the lands of 'Hawthornsike' by William Mure of
Abercorn, dated 5 April 1361 mentions 'lady Agnes de Montfode,
relict of the deceased John de Montfode ' ["d'ne Agnetis de
montfode relicte quond' Joh'is de montfode"] [3]. Her name was de
Monfode, but (obviously) by marriage.
That Agnes, wife of Sir John de Douglas, was a niece of Agnes
(de Graham) de Monfode and not identical to her, is further
supported on chronological grounds. Sir John de Graham (son of Sir
Nicholas and his wife Mary of Strathearn) was born before 19 May
1278: an inquisition of 19 May 1306, concerning the Muschamp
inheritance, found that he was 28 years of age [possibly phrased as
'28 years and more'] [4]. Agnes de Graham had a dispensation for
her marriage to Sir John de Douglas in October 1344 [5], by which
date she had issue and evidently continued producing offspring
after that date (they had a total of 9 sons and daughters that
are known). Assuming a minimal range of 15 years to produce 9
offspring, from say 1335/1340 to 1350/1355, Agnes would reasonably
be assumed to have been born between say 1290 and 1320, but
probably no earlier than between say 1295 to 1300. Mary of
Strathearn was born sometime before 20 March 1248/9, as an IPM
dated 20 March 1254/5 found that she was aged 6 [presumably,
'6 and more'] [6]. The latest point at which we might assume a
child to have been born to Mary of Strathearn by Nicholas de
Graham would have been between say 1288 and 1294. It would be
an extreme stretch to place Agnes, wife of Sir John de Douglas,
as a daughter of Mary of Strathearn given these constraints.
The following is a chart previously posted, but modified to
reflect Agnes (de Graham) de Monfode and her position as one of
the Grahams of Dalkeith and Abercorn.
Sir Nicholas = Mary of Strathearn
de Graham I <coheiress of her mother>
d. 1306 I
__________I_________________________
I I
Sir John de Graham = Isabella Agnes = John de
d. 25 Apr 1337 I Monfode
_____I______________
I I
Sir John de = Agnes de John de Graham
Douglas I Graham <grantor of charter to 'aunt Agnes'
d bef 25 I
Jan 1349/50 I
I
__________I_________________________________________
I I I I I III
Sir James William John Sir Henry Nicholas <siblings>
of Dalkeith of Lugton
= 1) Agnes of I
Dunbar V
I
__I______________________________________________
I I I I I
Agnes James William Janet Jacoba
= Sir John of Dalkeith = Sir John
Livingston d. 1441 Hamilton
I I I
V V V
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Registrum Honoris de Morton II:40-41.
[2] Sanders, English Baronies, p. 101; SP VI:195.
[3] Registrum Honoris de Morton II:60.
[4] SP VI:195, cites Cal. Doc. Scot., iii. 392.
[5] Bliss, Calendar of Papal Letters III:165:
" 1344.
4 Id. Oct. To the bishop of St. Andrews. Faculty to
Avignon. grant dispensation to John de Duglas, knight,
(f. 140d.) and Agnes de Grame to intermarry, they having
lived together and had offspring, notwithstanding
the assertion made that Agnes was aunt of a woman
with whom John had cohabited, Agnes being
ignorant of the said impediment. A penance is to
be enjoined on John, and two chaplaincies of 10
marks each are to be founded within two years.
Their past and future offspring is to be
declared legitimate.
[Cal. Pet. i.79; Theiner, 282.] "
[6] SP VIII:247.
* John P. Ravilious
______________________________________________________