Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
NameJohn de Courtenay 
[118, Courtenay, Vol I, p. 242], [60, Devon art, Vol IV, pedigree on p. 317 and p. 323], [74, No 10624, p. 155], [121, Okehampton, Devon barony, p. 70]
[118, Courtenay, Vol I, p. 242], [60, Devon art, Vol IV, pedigree on p. 317 and p. 323], [74, No 10624, p. 155], [121, Okehampton, Devon barony, p. 70]Death3 May 1274
BurialFord abbey
GeneralOf Okehampton.
FatherRobert de Courtenay (-1242)
MotherMary de Riviers (or Vernon) Countess of Devon (->1242)
Notes for John de Courtenay
John Ravilous wrote, in Nov 2004, with a reply by Chris Phillips:
> Interestingly, the date of death for John de Courtenay in CP is
> in error. An examination of the chartulary of Ford Abbey finds the
> following to be the actual text, concerning the death of John de
> Courtenay:
>
> " obiit tandem faeliciter in Christo quinto nonas Maii anno
> Domini M.CCLXXIII. et regni regis Edwardi primi, primo anno;
> qui juxta patrem suum dominuum Robertum de Courtnay apud
> Fordam sepelitur coram summo altari. " [3]
>
> trans. " he died at last, happily in Christ, on the fifth of the
> nones of May in the year of Our Lord 1273, and of the
> kingdom of King Edward the First, the first year; and was
> buried next to his father, Lord Robert de Courtenay, at
> Ford in the upper area of the altar."
>
> Clearly, John de Courtenay then died in May of 1273, not 1274 as
> the account in CP states. This appears to have resulted from
> confusion as the writ requiring the inquisition is dated 11 May
> 2 Edw. I [4]. Given that King Henry III died in 1272, and Edward I
> did not return from his Crusade until August 1274, it is certainly
> possible that there was some administrative delay in issuing the writ.
> There certainly seems no basis for the misstatement of the date in
> the Ford Abbey record, as given in CP.
...
> [2] CP II:465, sub _Courtenay_. The reference for this date is
> note (e), "Chron. of the Abbey of Ford (where he was bur.), in
> Monasticon, vol. v, p. 379".
>
> [3] Monasticon Anglicanum V:379, Num. 1: Fundationis et
> Fundatorum Historia.
>
> [4] CP II:465, and note (f).
This is also discussed by CP in vol. 4, p. 370, where again John's death is
dated to 3 May 1274. Footnote h cites "Chron. of Ford (Monasticon, vol. v,
p. 379), where, however, the year is erroneously given as 1273. The writ of
diem cl. ext. was issued 12 May 1274 (Fine Roll, 2 Edw. I, m. 23)."
I think we should be cautious about accepting Dugdale's transcript of the
Ford Chronicle against the strictly contemporary evidence of the Fine Roll -
it's easy to omit a stroke when copying Roman numerals.
Chris Phillips
_______________________________________________________
Moor in his ‘Kts of Ed I’ says his IPM was on a writ of 11 May 1274 (F.R.) and that he had 92 knights fees.
> Interestingly, the date of death for John de Courtenay in CP is
> in error. An examination of the chartulary of Ford Abbey finds the
> following to be the actual text, concerning the death of John de
> Courtenay:
>
> " obiit tandem faeliciter in Christo quinto nonas Maii anno
> Domini M.CCLXXIII. et regni regis Edwardi primi, primo anno;
> qui juxta patrem suum dominuum Robertum de Courtnay apud
> Fordam sepelitur coram summo altari. " [3]
>
> trans. " he died at last, happily in Christ, on the fifth of the
> nones of May in the year of Our Lord 1273, and of the
> kingdom of King Edward the First, the first year; and was
> buried next to his father, Lord Robert de Courtenay, at
> Ford in the upper area of the altar."
>
> Clearly, John de Courtenay then died in May of 1273, not 1274 as
> the account in CP states. This appears to have resulted from
> confusion as the writ requiring the inquisition is dated 11 May
> 2 Edw. I [4]. Given that King Henry III died in 1272, and Edward I
> did not return from his Crusade until August 1274, it is certainly
> possible that there was some administrative delay in issuing the writ.
> There certainly seems no basis for the misstatement of the date in
> the Ford Abbey record, as given in CP.
...
> [2] CP II:465, sub _Courtenay_. The reference for this date is
> note (e), "Chron. of the Abbey of Ford (where he was bur.), in
> Monasticon, vol. v, p. 379".
>
> [3] Monasticon Anglicanum V:379, Num. 1: Fundationis et
> Fundatorum Historia.
>
> [4] CP II:465, and note (f).
This is also discussed by CP in vol. 4, p. 370, where again John's death is
dated to 3 May 1274. Footnote h cites "Chron. of Ford (Monasticon, vol. v,
p. 379), where, however, the year is erroneously given as 1273. The writ of
diem cl. ext. was issued 12 May 1274 (Fine Roll, 2 Edw. I, m. 23)."
I think we should be cautious about accepting Dugdale's transcript of the
Ford Chronicle against the strictly contemporary evidence of the Fine Roll -
it's easy to omit a stroke when copying Roman numerals.
Chris Phillips
_______________________________________________________
Moor in his ‘Kts of Ed I’ says his IPM was on a writ of 11 May 1274 (F.R.) and that he had 92 knights fees.