Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
NameJohn Brown 
[36], [23, Alexander & Mayne, Vol II, p.171], [27, 1899: Trotter of Horton Manor, p. 2054], [33, John Brown's family], [32, His testament, from Scotland’s people]
[36], [23, Alexander & Mayne, Vol II, p.171], [27, 1899: Trotter of Horton Manor, p. 2054], [33, John Brown's family], [32, His testament, from Scotland’s people]Deathca Jan 1800, Glasgow, Scotland
General1st s. Merchant, of Glasgow.
FatherGeorge Brown
Notes for John Brown
RCL P-L says he was from Powys & Logie.
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His burial would be useful to get a bit close to his date of death (see his Will Notes for a first pass on this).
Scotland’s People has produced a list of 25 burials of John Browns from 1798 to 1799. So the question is whether this list can be reduced. For many of then an age is given, so we need to have a view of what age John was. They had an ‘irregular marriage’ in 1758; would this mean that they were younger rather than older. My guess is the former. Let’s say that John was around 25 in 1758. his death was around 1799, forty one years later, so he would have been 61 or so at death.
I copied the list of burial information to a spreadsheet and tested the burial date which I said had to lie, see his Will Notes, between 24 Nov 1798 and 25 Mar 1799. Of the 25 burials presented there were 7 that were ‘Valid’ and met this criterion. Of these seven only one was aged over 20 with an age of 70, which was plausible, so I chose him and may order the burial details. The misgiving with this proposal is that this burial is in Holyrood which may not be where he lived; it is part of Edinburgh and he was a merchant of Glasgow.
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Where he lived is shown by where their children were baptised. This is what I have found from Scotlands People:
1. With his wife’s surname as ‘Mayne’, 2 off:
Parish
Surname Forename Parents/ Other Details Gender Date Number Ref Parish
BROWN GEORGE JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAYNE FR356 (FR356) M 02/01/1759 644/1 130 160 Glasgow
BROWN THOMAS MAYNE JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAYNE FR593 (FR593) M 05/11/1764 644/1 140 222 Glasgow
B: With his wife’s surname as ‘Main’, 9 off:
Parish
Surname Forename Parents/ Other Details Gender Date Number Ref Parish
BROWN WILLIAM JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR405 (FR405) M 15/03/1760 644/1 130 256 Glasgow
BROWN JOHN JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR504 (FR504) M 19/02/1762 644/1 140 46 Glasgow
BROWN EDWARD JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR637 (FR637) M 19/03/1766 644/1 140 303 Glasgow
BROWN HELEN JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR697 (FR697) F 24/09/1767 644/1 150 23 Glasgow
BROWN ROBERT JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR748 (FR748) M 24/05/1769 644/1 150 125 Glasgow
BROWN JAMES JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR807 (FR807) M 21/01/1771 644/1 150 239 Glasgow
BROWN EDWARD JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR847 (FR847) M 23/03/1772 644/1 150 317 Glasgow
BROWN ALLAN JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR905 (FR905) M 14/05/1773 644/1 160 22 Glasgow
BROWN MARY JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR990 (FR990) F 07/09/1775 644/1 160 191 Glasgow
C: With his wife’s surname as ‘Mayn’, 2 off:
Parish
Surname Forename Parents/ Other Details Gender Date Number Ref Parish
BROWN FRANCES JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAYN FR1033 (FR1033) F 09/11/1776 644/1 160 277 Glasgow
BROWN ARCHBALD JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAYN FR1081 (FR1081) M 25/12/1777 644/1 160 368 Glasgow
Remarkably, this adds up to 13, which is the number of live births recorded by their grandson William Trotter, né Brown. So I tried with the mother’s surname of ‘Ma’ and this brought in two more but with the different mother’s surnames of ‘Mathison’ and ‘Matthie’.
Using ‘Broun’ for the father or the child cleared all entries. Interestingly the births and marriage of their son George all got the spelling of Broun from the clergymen of the Edinburgh and Leith districts; when George got down to London in 1794-5 this reverted to ‘Brown’.
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Of these 13 children only five married and had children. So, because of the cost that Scotland’s People charges for images of parish registers, I am only going to order baptism register copies for those five:
Name Bapt year Got
George 1759 Y
William 1760 Y
Mary 1775
Frances 1776
Archibald 1777
Later on I will be double checking that none of the other 8 children and John Brown and Jean Mayne married and procreated.
I had earlier bought the baptism copy for Thomas Mayne as this was the only record of this second forename.
June 16, 2021, TFPL: I completed the purchase of the above 5 (6) baptism register copies.
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The above established that John Brown spent all his life after marriage in the area of Glasgow. So I would expect that he died and was buried in Glasgow. But the problem is that I can find no clear record of his death or burial, I can only deduce that it was in Jan 1799 plus or minus two months.
Might he have been buried in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire where his family are said to have come from?
And what happened to his wife, Jean Mayne?
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____________________
His burial would be useful to get a bit close to his date of death (see his Will Notes for a first pass on this).
Scotland’s People has produced a list of 25 burials of John Browns from 1798 to 1799. So the question is whether this list can be reduced. For many of then an age is given, so we need to have a view of what age John was. They had an ‘irregular marriage’ in 1758; would this mean that they were younger rather than older. My guess is the former. Let’s say that John was around 25 in 1758. his death was around 1799, forty one years later, so he would have been 61 or so at death.
I copied the list of burial information to a spreadsheet and tested the burial date which I said had to lie, see his Will Notes, between 24 Nov 1798 and 25 Mar 1799. Of the 25 burials presented there were 7 that were ‘Valid’ and met this criterion. Of these seven only one was aged over 20 with an age of 70, which was plausible, so I chose him and may order the burial details. The misgiving with this proposal is that this burial is in Holyrood which may not be where he lived; it is part of Edinburgh and he was a merchant of Glasgow.
_____________________
Where he lived is shown by where their children were baptised. This is what I have found from Scotlands People:
1. With his wife’s surname as ‘Mayne’, 2 off:
Parish
Surname Forename Parents/ Other Details Gender Date Number Ref Parish
BROWN GEORGE JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAYNE FR356 (FR356) M 02/01/1759 644/1 130 160 Glasgow
BROWN THOMAS MAYNE JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAYNE FR593 (FR593) M 05/11/1764 644/1 140 222 Glasgow
B: With his wife’s surname as ‘Main’, 9 off:
Parish
Surname Forename Parents/ Other Details Gender Date Number Ref Parish
BROWN WILLIAM JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR405 (FR405) M 15/03/1760 644/1 130 256 Glasgow
BROWN JOHN JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR504 (FR504) M 19/02/1762 644/1 140 46 Glasgow
BROWN EDWARD JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR637 (FR637) M 19/03/1766 644/1 140 303 Glasgow
BROWN HELEN JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR697 (FR697) F 24/09/1767 644/1 150 23 Glasgow
BROWN ROBERT JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR748 (FR748) M 24/05/1769 644/1 150 125 Glasgow
BROWN JAMES JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR807 (FR807) M 21/01/1771 644/1 150 239 Glasgow
BROWN EDWARD JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR847 (FR847) M 23/03/1772 644/1 150 317 Glasgow
BROWN ALLAN JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR905 (FR905) M 14/05/1773 644/1 160 22 Glasgow
BROWN MARY JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAIN FR990 (FR990) F 07/09/1775 644/1 160 191 Glasgow
C: With his wife’s surname as ‘Mayn’, 2 off:
Parish
Surname Forename Parents/ Other Details Gender Date Number Ref Parish
BROWN FRANCES JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAYN FR1033 (FR1033) F 09/11/1776 644/1 160 277 Glasgow
BROWN ARCHBALD JOHN BROWN/JEAN MAYN FR1081 (FR1081) M 25/12/1777 644/1 160 368 Glasgow
Remarkably, this adds up to 13, which is the number of live births recorded by their grandson William Trotter, né Brown. So I tried with the mother’s surname of ‘Ma’ and this brought in two more but with the different mother’s surnames of ‘Mathison’ and ‘Matthie’.
Using ‘Broun’ for the father or the child cleared all entries. Interestingly the births and marriage of their son George all got the spelling of Broun from the clergymen of the Edinburgh and Leith districts; when George got down to London in 1794-5 this reverted to ‘Brown’.
_______________
Of these 13 children only five married and had children. So, because of the cost that Scotland’s People charges for images of parish registers, I am only going to order baptism register copies for those five:
Name Bapt year Got
George 1759 Y
William 1760 Y
Mary 1775
Frances 1776
Archibald 1777
Later on I will be double checking that none of the other 8 children and John Brown and Jean Mayne married and procreated.
I had earlier bought the baptism copy for Thomas Mayne as this was the only record of this second forename.
June 16, 2021, TFPL: I completed the purchase of the above 5 (6) baptism register copies.
________________________
The above established that John Brown spent all his life after marriage in the area of Glasgow. So I would expect that he died and was buried in Glasgow. But the problem is that I can find no clear record of his death or burial, I can only deduce that it was in Jan 1799 plus or minus two months.
Might he have been buried in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire where his family are said to have come from?
And what happened to his wife, Jean Mayne?
________________________
Will notes for John Brown
In his testament, a document drawn up after his death, the really significant feature is the list of the family involed and the documents signature by lawyers John Hall(?) and Graham Douglas with two witnesses, all signed on the twenty-ninth day of March one thousand seven hundred and ninety nine.
The list was:
0. The deceased, John Brown Merchant in Glasgow
1. His relict Jean Mayne,
The sons in the same order as their births (which was passed on by William, a grandson of this John):
2. George Brown,
3. William Brown,
4. Thomas Mayne Brown,
5. Robert Brown,
6. James Brown,
7. Edward Brown,
8. Allan Brown,
9. Archibald Brown.
The above list was given twice in the course of the testament.
This omitted from the list of 10 sons born to John and Jean the following two:
A: John born in 1762 and died in 1785 in India.
B: Edward, born and died an infant in 1766.
All the other 8 sons survived to after John Brown’s death.
The three daughters were not mentioned at all in the Testament (how times have changed!), though one is thought to have died young.
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From the Tesstament documents John’s death date can be narrowed down:
On 11th June 1795, John Brown tansferred his estates to some Bank trustees,
On 28th May 1798, he confirmed this in some deed to some Lanarkshire authority,
On 24th day of November 1998, John Brown made a bill with James McGowin to pay some money to John Brown.
So he must have died sometime between 24 Nov 1798 and 29 March 1799. That sounds like January 1999 give or take a couple of months.
Some burial information could narrow this down a tad.
__________________________
The list was:
0. The deceased, John Brown Merchant in Glasgow
1. His relict Jean Mayne,
The sons in the same order as their births (which was passed on by William, a grandson of this John):
2. George Brown,
3. William Brown,
4. Thomas Mayne Brown,
5. Robert Brown,
6. James Brown,
7. Edward Brown,
8. Allan Brown,
9. Archibald Brown.
The above list was given twice in the course of the testament.
This omitted from the list of 10 sons born to John and Jean the following two:
A: John born in 1762 and died in 1785 in India.
B: Edward, born and died an infant in 1766.
All the other 8 sons survived to after John Brown’s death.
The three daughters were not mentioned at all in the Testament (how times have changed!), though one is thought to have died young.
_________________________
From the Tesstament documents John’s death date can be narrowed down:
On 11th June 1795, John Brown tansferred his estates to some Bank trustees,
On 28th May 1798, he confirmed this in some deed to some Lanarkshire authority,
On 24th day of November 1998, John Brown made a bill with James McGowin to pay some money to John Brown.
So he must have died sometime between 24 Nov 1798 and 29 March 1799. That sounds like January 1999 give or take a couple of months.
Some burial information could narrow this down a tad.
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Mon Inscripts notes for John Brown
Billion Gra ves, at the tenth time of searching has produced three photographs of the memorial to him, his, wife, his son Archiballd, Archibald’s wife and daughter and Archibald’s sister Helen.
The stones has weathered a bit over the last two hundred years but I can read much of it and will then compare with the transcription from the Happy Haggis site, which was made a few years earlier.
The top half of the memorial, which is easier to read:
“ SACRED
“ TO THE MEMORY OF
“ JOHN BROWN
“ AND HIS WIFE JANE MAYNE
“ ALSO
“ HELEN BROWN THEIR DAUGHTER
“ WHO DIED SEPTR 1850, AGED 82
“ ———————————————
For Helen, what is known is the date of her birth from the baptism register on Scotland’s people website which is for 24/09/1767 and is a mere month after the birth date given from the records of William Brown, grandson of this John. If helen died aged 82, then a death year of 1850 is correct. The transcript choice is between 1850 and 1858 or 1859. I am going for 1850 as it agrees with the known birth date.
The lower half is Less easy to read and is something like:
“ ALSO OF
“ ARCHIBALD BROWN
“ WHO DIED 9TH AUG 1827
“ AND HIS DAUGHTER
“ ELIZABETH ANNE
“ WHO DIED 23RD AUGUST 1827
“ ALSO HIS WIFE
“ GRACE HAMILTON
“ WHO DIED 21ST JANY 1844
The names in BOLD were in fact carved in a slightly larger text but it is not possible to have different font sizes in Reunion Notes.
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Now for the comparison with HAPPY HAGGIS at <http://www.happyhaggis.co.uk/lanark-ramshorn.htm>:
“Sacred to the memory of John Brown, and his wife Jane Mayne. Also Helen Brown their daughter who died Sept. 1850 aged 82(?). Also of Archibald Brown who died 9th(?) Aug 1827 and his daughter Elizabeth Anne who died 29th(?) Sept. 1827 also his wife Grace Hamilton who died 21st Jany. 1844.”
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From the booklet “Transcriptions of Monumental Inscriptions in the Ramshorn Burying Grounds” by the Glasgow FHS, they have transcribed this wall tablet as:
“Sacred to the memnory of JOHN BROWN, and his wife JANE MAYNE, also HELEN BROWN, their daughter who died Sept. 1850 aged 82. Also of ARCHIBALD BROWN, who died 9th Aug. 1827, and his daughter ELIZABETH ANNE who died 29th sept. 1827 also his wife GRACE HAMILTON who died 21st Jan. 1844.
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The differences are all in the lower part and only on the one date:
My Trancript Happy Haggis Trancsript Glasgow FHS Decision
For Elizabeth Anne
who died:
“23rd August 1827” “29th(?) Sept. 1827” “21 Jan 27” “20th SEPTR. 1827”
This gives my best view of the memorial as:
“ SACRED
“ TO THE MEMORY OF
“ JOHN BROWN
“ AND HIS WIFE JANE MAYNE
“ ALSO
“ HELEN BROWN THEIR DAUGHTER
“ WHO DIED SEPTR 1850, AGED 82
“ ———————————————
“ ALSO OF
“ ARCHIBALD BROWN
“ WHO DIED 9TH AUG 1827
“ AND HIS DAUGHTER
“ ELIZABETH ANNE
“ WHO DIED 20TH SEPTR 1827
“ ALSO HIS WIFE
“ GRACE HAMILTON
“ WHO DIED 21ST JANY 1844
____________________________
The stones has weathered a bit over the last two hundred years but I can read much of it and will then compare with the transcription from the Happy Haggis site, which was made a few years earlier.
The top half of the memorial, which is easier to read:
“ SACRED
“ TO THE MEMORY OF
“ JOHN BROWN
“ AND HIS WIFE JANE MAYNE
“ ALSO
“ HELEN BROWN THEIR DAUGHTER
“ WHO DIED SEPTR 1850, AGED 82
“ ———————————————
For Helen, what is known is the date of her birth from the baptism register on Scotland’s people website which is for 24/09/1767 and is a mere month after the birth date given from the records of William Brown, grandson of this John. If helen died aged 82, then a death year of 1850 is correct. The transcript choice is between 1850 and 1858 or 1859. I am going for 1850 as it agrees with the known birth date.
The lower half is Less easy to read and is something like:
“ ALSO OF
“ ARCHIBALD BROWN
“ WHO DIED 9TH AUG 1827
“ AND HIS DAUGHTER
“ ELIZABETH ANNE
“ WHO DIED 23RD AUGUST 1827
“ ALSO HIS WIFE
“ GRACE HAMILTON
“ WHO DIED 21ST JANY 1844
The names in BOLD were in fact carved in a slightly larger text but it is not possible to have different font sizes in Reunion Notes.
________________________
Now for the comparison with HAPPY HAGGIS at <http://www.happyhaggis.co.uk/lanark-ramshorn.htm>:
“Sacred to the memory of John Brown, and his wife Jane Mayne. Also Helen Brown their daughter who died Sept. 1850 aged 82(?). Also of Archibald Brown who died 9th(?) Aug 1827 and his daughter Elizabeth Anne who died 29th(?) Sept. 1827 also his wife Grace Hamilton who died 21st Jany. 1844.”
________________________
From the booklet “Transcriptions of Monumental Inscriptions in the Ramshorn Burying Grounds” by the Glasgow FHS, they have transcribed this wall tablet as:
“Sacred to the memnory of JOHN BROWN, and his wife JANE MAYNE, also HELEN BROWN, their daughter who died Sept. 1850 aged 82. Also of ARCHIBALD BROWN, who died 9th Aug. 1827, and his daughter ELIZABETH ANNE who died 29th sept. 1827 also his wife GRACE HAMILTON who died 21st Jan. 1844.
________________________
The differences are all in the lower part and only on the one date:
My Trancript Happy Haggis Trancsript Glasgow FHS Decision
For Elizabeth Anne
who died:
“23rd August 1827” “29th(?) Sept. 1827” “21 Jan 27” “20th SEPTR. 1827”
This gives my best view of the memorial as:
“ SACRED
“ TO THE MEMORY OF
“ JOHN BROWN
“ AND HIS WIFE JANE MAYNE
“ ALSO
“ HELEN BROWN THEIR DAUGHTER
“ WHO DIED SEPTR 1850, AGED 82
“ ———————————————
“ ALSO OF
“ ARCHIBALD BROWN
“ WHO DIED 9TH AUG 1827
“ AND HIS DAUGHTER
“ ELIZABETH ANNE
“ WHO DIED 20TH SEPTR 1827
“ ALSO HIS WIFE
“ GRACE HAMILTON
“ WHO DIED 21ST JANY 1844
____________________________
Armorial Blazon notes for John Brown
Azure, a chevron chequy argent and sable between three fleurs-de-lis of the second.
Blazon source notes for John Brown
Granted to his son George in 1869, from the grant to his grandson Claud in 1865 on changing the latter’s name to Hamilton.
Notes for John & Jean (Family)
The entry in the Glasgow, Lanarks marriage register is:
“John Brown Mercht in Glasg: & Jean Main da of the deceased Wm Main of Logie comeared before the middle session July 7 & produced a certificate of their irregular marriage dated 2 January 1758 to which they adhered.”
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“John Brown Mercht in Glasg: & Jean Main da of the deceased Wm Main of Logie comeared before the middle session July 7 & produced a certificate of their irregular marriage dated 2 January 1758 to which they adhered.”
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